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[SPOILER] So Carol told Kirk she was pregnant ?

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  • [SPOILER] So Carol told Kirk she was pregnant ?

    Hello,

    Saw the new scenes of THT and was surprised to hear Carol Marcus saying she's pregnant as in TWOK kirk seems not to know anything about it. Memory alpha confirms Kirk never knew it.
    Also, it is also contrary to the different allusions "it's a boy" Kirk did not notice and took as references to a possible future.
    I pointed out this possible error prior to the release and got no answer, then I guess it is not considered as an error but I do not understand what is the purpose.

    Such a breech in the link between the series and the movies could have been easily avoided as the rest of the break-up scene is perfectly compatible.
    So, what does it add to the story ? Any further development for a next episode ?

    Thanks for any enlightenment.
    Regards,
    Nicolas.

    PS: the proposal is very nice...
    French subtitles -- sous-titres français

  • #2
    Uh, may I point out that the courtesy of putting [SPOILER] in the subject line is defeated if you also put the spoiler itself in the subject line?

    Comment


    • #3
      If Memory Alpha says that, then Memory Alpha is wrong. After the fight, Kirk asks Marcus, "Is that David?" That implies Kirk not only knows he has a son by Marcus but also that he knows his name is David.

      That Kirk knew he had a son and yet, evidently, never bothered to so much as introduce himself to him really, really, sucked. Kirk a deadbeat dad? Not much of a roll model!

      OK literally at a minimum, Kirk's question implies only that he knew there was someone at the outpost named David but I think even at that point there is still a strong implication that he at least knew David was Marcus's son.

      Later he says something to Marcus like, "You never told him? Why did you never tell him?" . Though one could assume an intervening conversation not shown in which Marcus explains to Kirk that David is Kirk's son, the simpler interpretation, based on the actual dialog, is that Kirk already knew Carol had his son, David.

      Of course one has to wonder what Marcus did tell David about his father. It is unlikely he never asked.

      Last edited by Fred the Redshirt; 02-02-2016, 09:35 PM. Reason: For the sake of accuracy and completeness

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you Fred, your reply made me check again and more deeply and I found a strange issue on that matter.

        I too wanted to be accurate, and in fact, being french, I was referring to the french version of Memory Alpha. I remembered that in TWOK (french dubbing), Kirk was clearly not aware he had a son. Both the sentence and the "unsaid" (body language, voice tone) were very precise on that. Then the french Memory Alpha Carol Marcus page goes the same way, stating Carol never told Kirk he had a son. So I was very surprised when the New Voyages episode was telling a different story.

        When I read your reply, I checked the english version of Memory Alpha, where the story unfolds as you say and now THT makes sense to me. By the way, the questions in THT and yours are relevant, considering the characters...

        I will ask at my end what others have understood and if there is an error only from me and a translation error in the french Memory Alpha page OR if there was a dubbing issue for the french version of TWOK ? (that would not be the first time).

        Thanks again, I can now transmit to the ones asking the same question down there.

        Best regards,
        Nicolas.
        Last edited by Nicolas Petit; 02-04-2016, 11:17 AM.
        French subtitles -- sous-titres français

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting! So, the French Memory Alpha is not merely a translation of the English Memory Alpha, or perhaps it is not up-to-date with the latest revisions. That raises the question of whether this was an accident in translation, or a deliberate change, possibly made to accommodate cultural differences.

          BTW, does the forum allow you to edit the subject line of the thread?

          Comment


          • #6
            I tried to edit the title, with no lock so far. Maybe a moderator or administrator could...
            But finally there is no spoiler as the fact was known ! :-)

            For the difference between the american and french versions of the MA pages, it seems that it originates from the initial translation of the movie itself ! The french canon differs from the american one !!!
            It was no harm until now since the story was never explored further, so now the question is should this be corrected in the french version of TWOK ?
            A subsidiary questiion could be: are there other such errors in translation ?

            For instance, it raises a lot of question for the french audience about the personality of Kirk !

            I have launched the subject on the largest ST french forum, waiting for reactions. Unfortunately, the french fandom is not the most active one...

            Regards,
            Nicolas.
            French subtitles -- sous-titres français

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello i'm new here.
              First of, Sorry for my bad english. I'm not a native speaker.
              After watching the episode yesterday i need to say some things about the scene where Carol Marcus tells Kirk of her pregnancy.


              Sorry but you're Version just does not add up.
              As you can read here: http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Tr...h-of-Khan.html
              Scenes 125 and 126 read to me, like Kirk did not know that he had a child.
              The lines you quote don't say that he knew.

              You youreself say:

              OK literally at a minimum, Kirk's question implies only that he knew there was someone at the outpost named David but I think even at that point there is still a strong implication that he at least knew David was Marcus's son.
              He knew that there was a person named David on the outpost. He had the files on that Outpost from Starfleet. He informed himself before rushing to aid like any good Captain would do.
              And yes. it's possible that he knew that Carol Marcus had a son but he definitely did not know that it was his.

              I might say that this is backed up by Memory Alpha (the english version)
              http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/James_T._Kirk

              Kirk was involved with Dr. Carol Marcus prior to taking command of the Enterprise. She bore his son, David Marcus, but the relationship dissolved as their careers drove them apart. In 2285, the fractured family unit was briefly reunited. (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan)
              So the picture you paint in "The holiest thing" about Kirk and Carol Marcus just is impossible.



              Last edited by ich56; 02-29-2016, 10:12 AM.

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              • #8
                I looked into this issue in great detail and found a way of getting THT to work within canon. Although many may not like the solution, it does match up perfectly with what we know about Carol and David from the movies. Read my report, here: http://www.stnv.de/thtcanon

                Comment


                • DoctorSeverin
                  DoctorSeverin commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I must admit that when I first heard that THT was going to have Carol Marcus in it, I thought it was going to be another time-travel episode, with Kirk going back and meeting Carol Marcus as she was in Pike's time.

                  in TWOK, Kirk says (of Khan) "There's a man out there I haven't seen in fifteen years". Space Seed took place what two years before THT, so David Marcus can only be thirteen or so!

                  The bit about protomatter accelerating his growth is plausible, but how on Earth did he get the title of "Doctor" at that age ?

                  The thing that really gets me though is that in the novelisation, it is made perfectly clear that David and Lieutenant Saavik are having it away with each other. OK, not impossible between a 13yo human and an "adult" Vulcan, but it isn't really Star Trek is it, to have what would be by 21C standards, a Starfleeft officer having it away with a rent boy ?

              • #9
                Hello Peter,

                Thanks for taking time to find a possible explanation for all these questions. But one still remains: the french version of TWOK has this difference that the translation and dubbing state clearly that Kirk is not aware of having a kid. Maybe it is a silght error that went unnoticed until now. Therefore, it could be wise to explaint this on the french page of THT.

                Also, the current french page is outdated, could you add your explanation text on this page so I could translate it and make a special addition for french fans about this specific difference ? You gave some details I have to check from here. Maybe I should ask Paramount France if they could clarifiy about the french translation/dubbing process of TWOK.

                Best regards,
                Nicolas.
                French subtitles -- sous-titres français

                Comment


                • Fred the Redshirt
                  Fred the Redshirt commented
                  Editing a comment
                  So The dialogue in English makes it clear that Kirk knew he and Carol had a son named David. Kirk asks, "Is that David?" but more importantly asks Carol why David doesn't know who he (Kirk) is. It is clear that David knew Kirk was a Starfleet Captain, but didn't know Kirk was his father. This always struck me as reflecting very poorly on Kirk. It sounds like the French version speaks better of Kirk's character.

                  Note the sequence in the English language memory-alpha:

                  "Kirk was involved with Dr. Carol Marcus prior to taking command of the Enterprise. She bore his son, David Marcus, but the relationship dissolved as their careers drove them apart"

                  This implies David was born before they broke up.

                  Keep in mind that New Voyages has not adhered to canon any better than any other Star Trek. Peter Kirk was far too young to return to the enterprise as an ensign during the same five year mission. The transporters in Blood and Fire had biofilters the absence of which was crucial to at least two of the original series episodes, and so on.

                  This is just another example where canon was bent (or if you prefer, ignored) to fit the story. It makes more sense to me to just accept that, that to try to twist events around to explain it. But there is no accounting for taste.
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